tatasthaa: Is seeking occurring?

bindu : If so in what?

tatasthaa: He is seeking. The Self is seeking.. why is He seeking if He is The Conscious Absolute.. what is that He is trying to find.. doesn't He know The Self alone exists?

bindu : where since He is all-in-all (including the field in which the seeking is "SEEMING" to be happening

bindu : be careful here nishu or you will lose track of the thread of it.

tatasthaa: ok ji.

bindu : I said where is seeking happening....? It cannot be happening, as "HE IS ALL", there is no WHERE to seek and no one to SEEK after, or do the seeking either.

Now, You said: "He is seeking. The Self is seeking.. why is He seeking if He is The Conscious Absolute?"

What is it that He is trying to find, NO seeking is happening..

NOW THAT IS WHY this Cosmos (including everything knowable or that it is possible to refer to.... inclusive of ParamAtma) is MAYA.

Sri Krishna says: "IT ALL EXISTS IN" His potential.

This means the UNIVERSAL existence is nothing but his Sakti in disguise within which and wherein, things are seeming to exist and occur.

But to the very last, they are merely reflections of the beginning of what has not begun ... it has not begun because it has existed eternally before Time came forth... Think a bit on this.


justanormalsong: This conversation is a bit beyond my understanding. I'm trying to learn about the Jiva.

tatasthaa: think like this ji.. the Jiva is you.. The Self is Krishna.

justanormalsong: ok, i get that, the Jiva is the real self, and The Ultimate Self is Krishna...but how does ego get into the equation? that's what confuses me. What's me, and what's real?

bindu: justanormalsong... Who is it in you that looks at the idea that the Jiva exists? JIVA IS THE EGO.

tatasthaa: Same here that is what this questions is about...

bindu: The jiva has not got an ego "HE IS THE EGO".

tatasthaa: Because of ego, there is a sense of seeking.. which seems to exist. when in reality, there is no seeking as The Self alone exists; well let me clarify this a little bit bindu ji.

According to gaudaiya parampara... the jiva is the living entity... and he has similar qualities to Krishna... and is non- different from Krishna he is also referred as the individual soul... justanormalsong is coming from that understanding.

This --->
Because of ego, there is a sense of seeking.. which seems to exist. when in reality, there is no seeking as The Self alone exists

I said where is seeking happening....? It cannot be happening, as "HE IS ALL", there is no WHERE to seek and no one to SEEK after, or do the seeking either. So how can the individual JivAtma be real?

tatasthaa: The material nature is referred as ego.. the three modes of material nature.. and because Jiva is associating with the material nature.. there is a talk about ego.. the false notion of the self.

bindu: No; the Jiva's existence extends beyond material nature; his final nature is pure idea ... or a mere concept of i-ness. Yet the final nature of the Jiva is a nebulous emptiness that is null and void; i.e. it does not exist at all. Why?

Because a concept has no Self-nature; if we were to say it is real that would equate with saying the reflection of the man walking past the mirror is the real man; we would say the movement of the reflection would actually be the man moving; we would not say the man is not the reflection; but if we say the reflected man was the real man that is not true at all.

In the same way, the IDEA or implied existence of a Soul\Jiva who exists as a divine soul is ridiculous.

tatasthaa: To clarify, bindu ji says.. that in reality... once we transcend the material mode of nature.. which is ignorance, passion and goodness.. we would be situated in the pure goodness.. so the concept of ego ceases to exist.. So it doesn't exist at all when we reach that stage.

bindu: Yes, until this stage is reached however; there is the dependence upon the SEEMING Reality of the Jiva else who goes where in what?

I say stop seeking and give up being or referring to yourself as anything -------------- just refer to the one in your own inner being who labels himself, and find out who He is.

tatasthaa: Please let me explain a bit further.. The Supreme Self (Krishna) has two nature.. one is spiritual nature.. other one material nature.. Maya.. this Maya is inferior to his supreme nature the spirit...

bindu: yes.

justanormalsong: yes! That's what i want to do, i want to find God.

tatasthaa: The so called Jeeva or a living entities.. who also have similar nature to sri Krishna... falsely identify themselves with the inferior nature.. Maya; they falsely identify them selves with the body....... When they are also the spiritual nature..

bindu: Yes, He exists in all beings as the SELF who watches thoughts and feelings and perceptions.... AND EVEN THE MIND. And when the mind is still in itself, there is the false identification with existing.

If there is a THEY - there is a THEM.
If a THEM - then separation.
If AN I and a them - separation also.

If an i and a HIM - separation.
If i-i then who is I, Since The Self is all ---
"HE IS ME" - but i am not him.

As when i say I, there is a reference to a "ME" who is not the one who referred to "ME". The one who refers to ME in MY MIND, is The Self.
The one referred to as "ME" is not The Self.

As in order to refer to "me" HE POINTS AT ME!

Who is He who points? - He is the same one in all of us He is The Self yet when we go beyond the mind we think we have attained Samadhi but that is Not so..

We are merely sitting in the MIND in its dormant state of ignorance; the ignorance is still and at rest; there is thus the loss of consciousness.

How stupid it is to think The Self is not conscious!!! So we must achieve Sahaja Samadhi; We must get Jivanmukti or fail.

Now then at this point we get stuck again, because no one gets anything since they do not exist!

So he who dies thinking he has attained the truth and decides not to give it up, has got his deserts and will be an owner who will come back here very soon; even though he thinks he will not ...

Yet for the ones who know the truth they know nothing exists hence there is no "where" to either come or go. No heavens, no hells, no lokas, no gods - nothing but the Naked Reality of The Transcendental Lord Existing in Himself. All else is false. So to the realized The Self in them realizes Himself in Himself as The Self in Himself.

tatasthaa: Once we realize that they we are of a spiritual nature like Sri Krishna Himself.. there is no talk about the separation.. or separate entities from Krishna ... that is what bindu ji says.. that there are no others... except The Self.

However..the vaishna maintains that the individual soul come to serve Krishna.. and keep their individuality in order to relate to Krishna and experience that happiness.. as they believe that it is the highest form of happiness.

So bindu ji.. how are we stuck? Perhaps here is the confusion between the vaishnaiva philosophers and the saiva philosophers.. which i would like to clarify here.. they mean the same.. when they say we don't exist.. it only means that we are situated in that state where The Self alone exists.. so at that stage.. there are no talk about the separate living entity.. which seemed to have existed in the process...

bindu: Yes. but wait.. there is this --------->

"tatasthaa: The vaishnaiva maintains that the individual souls come to serve Krishna. Although the vaishnaiva maintain that we remain as individual souls to serve Krishna to relate to Krishna as a lover, mother, father, brother or sister or friends. They believe it is the highest stage. as we derive great pleasure from relating to Krishna."

bindu: This is correct, but since there is no other Self but The Self Himself - then He created them to serve Him... but if He acted to create them it would mean He is deficient in Himself; having need of servants etc.. which is ridiculous ............ soooo..

Look carefully at the last post.

The Self does not act or create anything since He is all, nothing is created.. as He is already ALL... sooo He sits in Himself as Himself. THIS IS HIS STATE OF EXISTING.

Now due to the fact that it is His nature and Being To be The-ALL-In-ALL ----- ALL, already exists IN HIM even before it comes; So He does not have to do or say anything at all. It is simply spontaneously arising IN HIM!

BUT due to HE being ALL; nothing is ARISING AS HE IS ALREADY ALL what is arising then is an illusion of something having arisen hence as Vasista says it is a dream of something having arisen
BUT, what arises is his potential ... it has potentially arisen...............

tatasthaa: jai jai; Sat Cit Ananda! That is called Yoga Maya and is not seen as the Maya; Yoga Maya is when Krishna deludes Himself, with the help of Maya in order to experience the pleasure potency.. Sri Radha

bindu: The whole Cosmos (we now know) exists in a state of atomic flux ... just as the Spanda Karika describes the constant flashing forth and withdrawal of the existence of the Lord as the Cosmos.

So this si not so hard to get or understand at all. the thing to do is just accept Him AFTER understanding Him intellectually; then jnana dawns

But jnana does not belong to Jiva; nor does Kriya or Karma.

Since He is ALL, it is His.. i have no karma and He cannot fool me into thinking i do as i do not exist; it is ALL HIS!

Yet a man thinks he has Karma of his own... Not so..

The karma which (as with anything) belongs to sri Krishna; sri Krishna's Karma makes everyone have their respective natures; but neither the Karma nor the nature belongs to the Jeeva belongs to them it merely designates their nature. Thus the multiplicity of the mind modes and consciousness modes of sri Krishna come into being due to this Karma.

tatasthaa: So for Him to becomes two is impossible i guess. Ji explain sat cit ananda. jai jai. This thinking is occurring because of Krishna's inferior nature Maya.. Prabhupada says that because the Jiva is one in quality with Krishna but not in quantity... therefore he easily and falsely identifies with the material nature Maya.

bindu: Yes. So then since i do not exist, and have no self-nature
He is my very Self itself; He is NOT my Jiva and I am not Him He is "ME"

The Jiva is not mine - i have no Self who could claim ownership of any Jiva.

To compare that to the Sakta doctrine, He says the Siva is limited in efficacy of will in the modes of His own consciousness due to identifying with the Jiva as The Self... and conversely He is not limited in Power of Will and efficacy in all the modes of his own consciousness due to identifying with himself as the Conscious Absolute.